Question:
The coolant never goes thru the transmission. The transmission fluid goes through the lower part of the radiator for some cooling effect. Some cars have a separate tranny fluid radiator for cooling, called atf cooler. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not really. The cooling systems are physically no different. The coolant > goes from the radiator thru the engine, transmission, and heater core and > then back to the radiator.
Response:
>> Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our > Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years. >You probably didn’t take any long vacations in that feat of engineering,
several — 2001 Grand Prix GT http://727tj.tripod.com/
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> Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for > approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi
engine. Eh? WTF are you talking about?
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"Buford T. Justice" wrote > There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system. > Yes there is. How does a radiator cap open to let excess coolant into the > overflow tank? Magic?
No, it’s not magic, but it’s certainly not steam. It’s simply the fact that the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved. > Keep the overflow filled to the HOT line on a cool system? That should tell > the GM engineers are on crack.
Not really, it’s just their way of trying to ensure that the cooling system does not get air into it for a longer period of time. The air in the system is really only a problem with any of the engines that have a cast iron block, or heads. I’ve seen very few if any sludging problems with the all aluminum engines. Also the vehicles that use a radiator cap, and a separate non-pressurized overflow tank seem to be the most susceptible to the sludging problem. I’ve seen very few problems with the vehicles that have the hard plastic pressurized overflow tank that has the ‘rad’ cap mounted on the overflow tank not the rad. > DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn’t do enough real world tests > on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact > with air in one way or another then you will get mud. As I said, wait to a > tennager at Jiffy Lube tops off your empty overflow tank with green. Do you > really thing they will take your radiator cap off to look and see what type > of antifreeze your are running? How about NO!
Of course, this is really more the fault of stupid customers that take their vehicles to a place like Jiffy Lube. And the problem is not Dexcool in direct contact with air, it’s a cooling system that is allowed to be run at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has at least a cast iron block. > Super Cleaner being ran for 4 – 6 hours ring any bells? I and many > uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and be > a better choice. Man were we wrong.
I don’t believe that GM ever recommended changing to Dexcool on older cars. By the way, I’m not a big fan of Dexcool. I work with vehicles that use it all day and I’ve come to the conclusion that it cannot be relied upon to last as long as GM says it should. We now advise people to change Dexcool at about the 100K kilometer mark, or every 3 years. This seems to work well, and cuts down on the incidence of cooling system problems with Dexcool. Ian
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That was a typo. It happens. My bad. BTJustice
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What does that have to do with your claim of 300K mile rebuilds?
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> > Eh? WTF are you talking about?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2264… > umber=1 > "No one, it turns out, likes maintenance less than long-haul diesel > truckers. Turcotte told me about Zerex Extended Life. This red juice is > designed to go full-strength into truck radiators. Do nothing for the first > 300,000 miles or three years. Then throw in another whack of inhibitors, a > quart of Zerex Extended Life Extender, and run another 300,000, at which > point the engine is probably scheduled for a full tear-down."
What does that have to do with your claim of 300K mile rebuilds?
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"Phillip Schmid" wrote > In all fairness to GM, my grampas 97 Silverado (I think that’s at ~125k > miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have > Dex-Cool and haven’t had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build > up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no heat > in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow tank > was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot > line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same > engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different > results with Dex-Cool ?
I can’t really answer that question to anybody’s satisfaction. I’ve seen all of the above vehicles with sludging problems in our shop, but the Blazer’s are by far the worst. I’m sure that you kept your coolant level up, but most customers don’t. And often the coolant level in the rad can be low, while the overflow is full. This is because the rad cap gets so bunged up that it can no longer pull the coolant back into the rad as the coolant cools down. Ian
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Because DEX-COOL sucks and the level was low in your radiator. If you filled your overflow tank to the hot line when the engine was cold and it was at the same level when the engine was hot then the radiator had to be low. DEX-COOL doesn’t like playing with air. How is it running with conventional green? BTJustice
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In all fairness to GM, my grampas 97 Silverado (I think that’s at ~125k > miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have > Dex-Cool and haven’t had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build > up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no heat > in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow tank > was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot > line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same > engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different > results with Dex-Cool ?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Buford T. Justice" wrote > > There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system. > Yes there is. How does a radiator cap open to let excess coolant into the > overflow tank? Magic? > No, it’s not magic, but it’s certainly not steam. It’s simply the fact that > the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs > of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap > unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty > simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved. > Keep the overflow filled to the HOT line on a cool system? That should > tell > the GM engineers are on crack. > Not really, it’s just their way of trying to ensure that the cooling system > does not get air into it for a longer period of time. The air in the > system is really only a problem with any of the engines that have > a cast iron block, or heads. I’ve seen very few if any sludging problems > with the all aluminum engines. Also the vehicles that use a radiator cap, > and a separate non-pressurized overflow tank seem to be the most > susceptible to the sludging problem. I’ve seen very few problems with > the vehicles that have the hard plastic pressurized overflow tank that > has the ‘rad’ cap mounted on the overflow tank not the rad. > DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn’t do enough real world tests > on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact > with air in one way or another then you will get mud. As I said, wait to > a > tennager at Jiffy Lube tops off your empty overflow tank with green. Do > you > really thing they will take your radiator cap off to look and see what > type > of antifreeze your are running? How about NO! > Of course, this is really more the fault of stupid customers that take > their vehicles to a place like Jiffy Lube. And the problem is not Dexcool > in direct contact with air, it’s a cooling system that is allowed to be run > at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has > at least a cast iron block. > Super Cleaner being ran for 4 – 6 hours ring any bells? I and many > uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and > be > a better choice. Man were we wrong. > I don’t believe that GM ever recommended changing to Dexcool on > older cars. > By the way, I’m not a big fan of Dexcool. I work with vehicles that use > it all day and I’ve come to the conclusion that it cannot be relied upon > to last as long as GM says it should. We now advise people to change > Dexcool at about the 100K kilometer mark, or every 3 years. This > seems to work well, and cuts down on the incidence of cooling system > problems with Dexcool. > Ian
In all fairness to GM, my grampas 97 Silverado (I think that’s at ~125k miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have Dex-Cool and haven’t had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no heat in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow tank was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different results with Dex-Cool ?
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> several
http://727tj.tripod.com/omni.htm Looks like a yard ornament now. BTJustice
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> Eh? WTF are you talking about?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2264… umber=1 "No one, it turns out, likes maintenance less than long-haul diesel truckers. Turcotte told me about Zerex Extended Life. This red juice is designed to go full-strength into truck radiators. Do nothing for the first 300,000 miles or three years. Then throw in another whack of inhibitors, a quart of Zerex Extended Life Extender, and run another 300,000, at which point the engine is probably scheduled for a full tear-down."
Response:
> No, it’s not magic, but it’s certainly not steam. It’s simply the fact that > the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs > of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap > unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty > simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved.
Yes and no. It is not complete steam but the beginning of the steam process that opens the radiator cap which is the cause of the pressure. If you open your radiator cap with a completely warm engine you will see what I mean when you see the steam and HOT coolant fly out. > Not really, it’s just their way of trying to ensure that the cooling system > does not get air into it for a longer period of time. The air in the > system is really only a problem with any of the engines that have > a cast iron block, or heads. I’ve seen very few if any sludging problems > with the all aluminum engines. Also the vehicles that use a radiator cap, > and a separate non-pressurized overflow tank seem to be the most > susceptible to the sludging problem. I’ve seen very few problems with > the vehicles that have the hard plastic pressurized overflow tank that > has the ‘rad’ cap mounted on the overflow tank not the rad.
Yes a lot of newer vehicles are losing the radiator cap altogether and simply running it on the overflow tank, but most cars still have a radiator with a radiator cap and an overflow tank that is non-pressurized. I honestly doubt the metal makes any difference, but I have heard the DEX-COOL does not like lead solder which use to be used for the metal lines going into the radiator. > Of course, this is really more the fault of stupid customers that take > their vehicles to a place like Jiffy Lube. And the problem is not Dexcool > in direct contact with air, it’s a cooling system that is allowed to be run > at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has > at least a cast iron block.
As I said in my original post, my family is a GM family. However, I don’t think the GM engineers deserve god-like status or anything. If the coolant is low in your cooling system, the idiot light on the dash should be on to alert the owner of this problem. I personally do most of the work on my vehicle. I might go to a Jiffy Lube in the dead of winter, and, when I do, I bring my own oil and filter. I only make them change the oil and nothing else. Thousand, and arguably millions, of people don’t have the benefit of knowing how to do light maintenance on their vehicles and trust the places they go to 100% for that maintenance. > I don’t believe that GM ever recommended changing to Dexcool on > older cars.
No, but Texeco, the co-creator of DEX-COOL, does. Look here… http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze.html > By the way, I’m not a big fan of Dexcool. I work with vehicles that use > it all day and I’ve come to the conclusion that it cannot be relied upon > to last as long as GM says it should. We now advise people to change > Dexcool at about the 100K kilometer mark, or every 3 years. This > seems to work well, and cuts down on the incidence of cooling system > problems with Dexcool.
Yes I believe changing coolant every 2-3 years is the smart thing to do. However, there really is no hope for DEX-COOL and GM is starting to realize this. Probably within the next few years, especially after this class action lawsuit over DEX-COOL, GM will either go back to conventional green, go to G-05, or come out with something completely different. Hope they don’t make blue coolant. I can see someone pouring that into their washer fluid tank already. According to the Zerex website below, their G-05 meets the current GM specs, but they do not recommend going over to G-05 from DEX-COOL though it is probably safe. Has anyone reading hits thread gone the G-05 from DEX-COOL? http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=10 (CLICK ON PRODUCT SPECS) BTJustice
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>> Dex-cool is a specific style antifreeze > in that the whole entire system has to be designed for it. >Not really. The cooling systems are physically no different. The coolant >goes from the radiator thru the engine, transmission, and heater core and >then back to the radiator.
What about the gasket materials, are they the same? > Also, there is > nothing wrong with running a coolant that is long life for a longer period > of time. >Yes there is! As long as no more water or antifreeze is added to a cooling >system, the freeze point is permanent, but the boilover and and protection >points do change.
Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years. > As long as you check the coolant from time to time for > discoloration from contamination and the such, you will be good to go. New > semi’s that have engines worth as much as a new truck use this type of >long > life coolant as well. >Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for >approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi engine. >If hte engine is fine, then they pour in a bottle which extends the life of >the coolant. >BTJustice
— 2001 Grand Prix GT http://727tj.tripod.com/
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> What about the gasket materials, are they the same?
They were until GM had a recall on the 3800s. Then another recall on the intake manifold gasket bolts. Crazy stuff. > Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our > Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
You probably didn’t take any long vacations in that feat of engineering, lol. BTJustice
Response:
> There is a problem with your theory.
It is not a theory. They are simple "real-world" facts. > Dex-cool is a specific style antifreeze > in that the whole entire system has to be designed for it.
Not really. The cooling systems are physically no different. The coolant goes from the radiator thru the engine, transmission, and heater core and then back to the radiator. > It is like trying > to run R134a freon in an R12. Of course you are going to get all kinds of > grief with gaskets and the such. The basic chemical composition of Dex-cool > and a traditional glycol antifreeze are very different.
This is a bad example. R134A and R12 do require 2 completely different systems to run. DEX-COOL and conventional green do not require different cooling systems and have the same chemical compostion which is ethylene glycol. DEX-COOL uses organic inhibitors and conventional green uses inorganic inhibitors. > Also, there is > nothing wrong with running a coolant that is long life for a longer period > of time.
Yes there is! As long as no more water or antifreeze is added to a cooling system, the freeze point is permanent, but the boilover and and protection points do change. > As long as you check the coolant from time to time for > discoloration from contamination and the such, you will be good to go. New > semi’s that have engines worth as much as a new truck use this type of long > life coolant as well.
Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi engine. If hte engine is fine, then they pour in a bottle which extends the life of the coolant. BTJustice
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> 98 bonneville 75k miles (5 year old coolant until just recently), Clean as > hell coolant and overflow bottle. I pulled both my upper and lower intakes > to repair a leak caused by the egr pipe and the cooling passages had NO > oxidation, coatings, or sludge what so ever. The metal was as bright and > shiny as the day it was assembled.
Glad to hear DEX-COOL is working fine for you. Others are not so lucky. > If its a silica based coolant it will eat up the aluminum components. Also > the temp sensor is balanced to read a dexcool system. It may not have the > resistance to the coating that green coolant leaves on everything. Though > they make mistakes in designs now and then do you really know more about > the cooling system than the GM engineers that designed it?
I have yet to see a green coolant sold at any major auto supply store that does not protect aluminum. The temp sensor doesn;t care what is in the cooling system. It simply monitors the temp of what is in the cooling system. Try running just straight water and you will see the temp is the same, but he water will start rusting your aluminum components. Texeco was the primary engineer of DEX-COOL. > There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system.
Yes there is. How does a radiator cap open to let excess coolant into the overflow tank? Magic? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You dont understand what I’m saying, I’ll try my best to explain > everything I have experienced and read about. Air in the overflow bottle > wont muddy it. Its intense heat and low coolant levels that cause the > coolant to crystalize. Basically when theres air in the system its cooking > the coolant. Put salt water in a saucer and let it evaporate and you’re > left with salt crystals coating the saucer. Basically the same thing > happens to dexcool and thats why it looks muddy because of air in the > system and "intense heat". When you put non distilled water or another > substance in the coolant it causes the chemicals that make up dexcool, to > the best i can tell, fall out of suspension or to latch onto the > contaminates or the sludge is the contaminate. > If you’re overflow bottle is muddy it was contaminated or your cooling > system is low. When its low air is in the system and steam now builds up > and pushes the coolant into the overflow bottle. Then all that crystalized > coolant clogs up your radiator cap and what went into the overflow bottle > doesnt make it back in so it tricks you into thinking your system is full. > Thats why you need to uncap it now and then just to make sure its really > full.
Now that is good advise. It is important ot remove the radiaotr cap from time ot time to be sure the radiator is actually full. > I do my own maintenance so its not impossible for me. Do what I do, keep > it filled to the hot line when the engine is cool. GM is actually > recommending that in their service bulletins. If some shop contaminates > your cooling system pursue them in court if thats what it takes to correct > that problem.
Keep the overflow filled to the HOT line on a cool system? That should tell the GM engineers are on crack. > I got a website marked somewhere that covers dexcool and other coolants > pretty well. If I come accross it in the next few days I’ll post it. > Dexcool is getting a bad wrap by people who dont try to fully understand > it or dont maintain there systems correctly. If you never EVER contaminate > an "original" dexcool system it wont get muddy. If you dont ever ever let > air into the "COOLING SYSTEM" (not the overflow bottle) it wont get muddy.
DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn’t do enough real world tests on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact with air in one way or another then you will get mud. As I said, wait to a tennager at Jiffy Lube tops off your empty overflow tank with green. Do you really thing they will take your radiator cap off to look and see what type of antifreeze your are running? How about NO! > You mentioned you tried to upgrade cooling systems that never originally > had dexcool. The only possible chance that could have maybe worked is if > the system was acid flushed repeatedly. Even then it would still be iffy.
Super Cleaner being ran for 4 – 6 hours ring any bells? I and many uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and be a better choice. Man were we wrong. BTJustice
Response:
I have read about this sometime ago and here is information that may be beneficial to everyone. I guess there is pro’s and con’s for everything. So the pro’s is DEX-COOL offer excellent heat transfer capability thus if it is done properly. Check out this reference article http://www.theherd.com/articles/dex_cool.html The con’s perhaps it is does not last as long as expected. Also, there is a big class action pending with GM right now about this …. Here is the links for your reference. http://www.bigclassaction.com/class_action/dexcool.html and this one . http://www.geocities.com/b_gillie/dexcool_problems.html Myself I would probably not convert back but replace the DEX-COOL regularly (may be every 3 years or less under extreme climate) MN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My family is a GM family. There have been a few exceptions to this. My > Grandma’s parents owned a Ford Model T, found out it was a piece of junk, > and traded it for a Chevrolet. I owned a 1995 Ford Mustang GT for a few > months back in 1997 (great car). And my brother currently owns a Mitsubishi > Eclipse. > I am the one that usually changes the coolant in my family’s vehicles. I > remember back around 1996 or so, I was driving a 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo > and decided to convert it to the new red DEX-COOL coolant that had just came > out. When I say "convert" I mean doing my 22 steps below as to obtain a 60% > antifreeze to 40% water mixture. I later bought a 1991 Chevrolet Lumina and > then a 1992 Chevrolet S-10 after owning several other cars between those and > the 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. I converted the Lumina to DEX-COOL. It > ruined a gasket that had to be replaced. The S-10 was even worse. After > converting it, it would blow smoke out of the tailpipe every time it was > started due to coolant leaking into one of the cylinders. > I decided to get rid of the S-10 earlier this month and bought a 1995 > Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with every option imaginable. After a few days of > owning it, I checked the coolant to find that it was BROWN! That means it > hadn’t been serviced for quite some time. I figured it was DEX-COOL so I > flushed the cooling system and poured in some fresh DEX-COOL. After doing > that, I found out it had conventional green instead so, after about 3 days > of DEX-COOL, I converted my car back over to green using Zerex 5/100 > Coolant. I think I got the DEX-COOL out in time before it could start > eating away at gaskets and seals and start spawning that reddish brown mud > in my cooling system. > Now around 2000, I converted my Mom’s 1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo from green > to DEX-COOL. After finding out about my Pontiac originally having green, I > decided to convert her car back to green. I was SHOCKED to find that the > DEX-COOL had turned into that damned reddish brown mud. The throat of her > radiator and the radiator cap were almost ruined. It took me an good hour > of scrubbing the radiator cap with a tooth brush to get it clean. > I did the exact same thing to her car that I had done to mine. I used the > back flush tee I had installed in 2000, back flushed her car with the engine > running with the heater on high for 30 minutes, poured in a bottle of Zerex > Super Cleaner, had her drive the car on and off for about 6 hours, drained > the radiator, back flushed again with the engine on and the heater on high > for 15 minutes (I was happy to see the mud coming out knowing the Zerex > Super Cleaner had done its job), poured in a bottle of Zerex Super Flush and > ran the engine for 15 minutes with the heater on high to be sure all the mud > was gone, drained the radiator, hooked the hose back up to the back flushing > tee, and back flushed again for 30 minutes. I drained the radiator, took > out the overflow tank and cleaned it out with hot water, Dawn dish soap, and > a bottle brush. I hooked the overflow tank back up, closed the radiator > drain plug, put the cap back on the back flushing tee, and poured in Zerex > 5/100 Coolant. > That was about a 3 weeks ago. After checking the overflow tank, radiator, > and radiator cap, I am happy to report that there is no mud and the car runs > great. > All the above is my story with my experiences with DEX-COOL and conventional > green coolant / antifreeze. I will now explain what I think of conventional > green, DEX-COOL, and G-05. > DEX-COOL > I think this was a bad idea from the start. You would have to be a complete > moron to run any coolant / antifreeze for 5 years. A lot of people also > have the misunderstanding that they are not to touch it for 5 years. This > is just stupidity created by GM. > I think the 2 biggest flaws to DEX-COOL are that if it gets into contact > with conventional green directly or through the deposits left by > conventional green, it will form that reddish brown mud. If DEX-COOL comes > into contact with air either inside the cooling system or outside, it will > form either the reddish brown mud or the red "cement". This has been proven > by both owners of some 1996 – Present S-10s and owners of other GM vehicles. > I would probably recommend most folks stick with DEX-COOL if that is what > their vehicle came with, but a lot of brave people have converted back to > conventional green without any problems. > Conventional Green > I think it is the best especially for GM vehicles. If you do an extremely > thorough back flush (the 22 steps listed below) you will get all the > DEX-COOL out. I would HIGHLY recommend using Zerex 5/100 Coolant which most > AutoZone stores carry. > G-05 > I have not used this coolant yet, but keep hearing good things about it. It > is designed to work in new Fords and Chryslers and has been used for many > years by Mercedes and John Deere. I think GM will eventually switch to it. > Now if you would like to back flush the DEX-COOL or any other coolant out of > your vehicle, do it this way (you are responsible for what you do to the > vehicle you are working on). > 1) Buy a few jugs of Zerex 5/100, either a Prestone or Zerex back > flushing tee, a bottle of Zerex Super Cleaner, and a bottle of Zerex Super > Flush. You might optionally want to go ahead and replace your thermostat. > 2) After driving the car for 30 minutes or longer, open the radiator > drain cock, and let the radiator completely drain out. While you are > waiting, find the heater core hose that runs into the engine (not the one > going to the water pump) and cut it. Install your back flushing tee. Also > disconnect your overflow tank hose. > 3) After the radiator is drained, take off the radiator cap. > 4) Get your garden hose and screw it onto your back flushing tee > connector then put the connector to the back flushing tee you installed.. > 5) Turn on the water and wait for water to start coming out of both the > radiator drain and top radiator opening. > 6) Turn on your engine with your heater running on high and let the car > back flush for 30 minutes. > 7) Turn off the engine and disconnect your garden hose. > 
Wait for the water to drain completely from the radiator. > 9) Close the radiator drain cock. > 10) Pour in your bottle of Zerex Super Cleaner into the radiator. > 11) Connect the overflow tank hose and top off radiator with water. > 12) If you have bleeder valves for air, turn the engine on with the valves > open and wait for water to come out of them in a constant stream then close > the valves. > 13) Drive your vehicle for 4 – 6 hours which can be on and off and over a > few days. Be careful the outside temperature is not 32
