Most dependable GM make?
Question:
I know we all have our opinions, but does anyone have info as to the most dependable and highest quality line in GM? I currently own a ‘95 Buick Park Avenue and will most probably be trading this summer. Any input will be appreciated.
Response:
> I know we all have our opinions, but does anyone have info as to the most > dependable and highest quality line in GM? I currently own a ‘95 Buick Park > Avenue and will most probably be trading this summer. Any input will be > appreciated.
Except for minor trim variations they are all the same. The 3.8 is a decent engine.
Response:
IIRC, a survey by one of the big mags was done. Well, Buick came out on top in the GM line, mostly due to the 3.8L, I bet. Something like 110 "defects" per 100 vehicles made.
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But who cares about initial quality, for the most part – how about life cycle cost?? The dealer takes care of initial quality issues. I have two 96 GrandAm’s that are the most unreliable cars I have ever owned, far and away the most expensive to maintain, and probably the last I’ll ever own. They have both had the same problems. My 89 Cutlass is a dream. Dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> IIRC, a survey by one of the big mags was done. Well, Buick came out on top > in the GM line, mostly due to the 3.8L, I bet. Something like 110 "defects" > per 100 vehicles made.
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Well, obviously, Pontiac did not quite make it towards the top of that list. Not a good start , IMHO.
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I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac seems like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the Firebird to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac firebird. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, obviously, Pontiac did not quite make it towards the top of that list. > Not a good start , IMHO.
Response:
> I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac seems > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > Firebird > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > firebird.
You’ll never see that. Two reasons: the F-Bodies are on their way out and it’s plain stupid. Buick and Pontiac are two very different parts of GM, one conservative and directed at an older demographic and the other a sporty division with some whacked out styling (see the Aztek). I doubt GM will dissolve anybody else, but I’d have to agree that Pontiac would be the next to go. — GH
Response:
> I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac seems > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > Firebird > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > firebird.
Yes, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At least Pontiac is clearly supposed to be the "excitement" division (according to their advertising, which to GM corporate is all that matters anyway). And market data would tell GM that Buick is no place for a Firebird, anyway (the median age of buyers being something like _65_).
Response:
> I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac seems > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > Firebird > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > firebird.
Actually Pontiac has an identity and attracts younger buyers. Buick has decent sales and a good quality image but their customers are literally dying off. Oldmobile had finally gotten some decent product but was not attracting the younger owners needed fast enough to replace the older drivers that supplied alot of sales but were turned off by cars that didn’t have bench seats. Many of these older drivers turned to Buick (who as stated earlier will die off sooner than Buick can replace them with younger drivers).
Response:
Trade up to an Eldorado Touring Coupe. It has a great combination of luxury, performance, comfort, and reliability. The Northstar engine is fantastic and almost has too much power for a front-wheel drive car. The suspension is tuned for the right combination of handling and comfort. The Bose sound system is super compared to most stock systems. I owned a 93 for 3 years (bought it used) with not a single problem. The dealers seem to treat you better than the other divisions. You can get a 97 or 98 for a very reasonable cost, since most of the heavy depreciation has occurred. It should still be covered by the 5-year warranty. Willy Nilly
| I know we all have our opinions, but does anyone have info as to the most | dependable and highest quality line in GM? I currently own a ‘95 Buick Park | Avenue and will most probably be trading this summer. Any input will be | appreciated.
Response:
I doubt it, the Baby Boomer generation is a vast large one. It will take years before they will all die out. That would be bad for the economy, because they make up something like 75% of consumer spending. On the other hand, when they are all retired we would all be on our knees paying tax to support the pension funds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac seems > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > Firebird > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > firebird. > Actually Pontiac has an identity and attracts younger buyers. Buick has decent > sales and a good quality image but their customers are literally dying off. > Oldmobile had finally gotten some decent product but was not attracting the > younger owners needed fast enough to replace the older drivers that supplied alot > of sales but were turned off by cars that didn’t have bench seats. Many of these > older drivers turned to Buick (who as stated earlier will die off sooner than > Buick can replace them with younger drivers).
Response:
Answer: None. Why? They’re all backed up by the same lousy service organization. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I know we all have our opinions, but does anyone have info as to the most > dependable and highest quality line in GM? I currently own a ‘95 Buick Park > Avenue and will most probably be trading this summer. Any input will be > appreciated.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I doubt it, the Baby Boomer generation is a vast large one. It will take > years > before they will all die out. That would be bad for the economy, because > they make > up something like 75% of consumer spending. On the other hand, when they are > all > retired we would all be on our knees paying tax to support the pension funds. > > I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac > > seems > > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > > Firebird > > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > > firebird. > Actually Pontiac has an identity and attracts younger buyers. Buick has > decent > sales and a good quality image but their customers are literally dying off. > Oldmobile had finally gotten some decent product but was not attracting the > younger owners needed fast enough to replace the older drivers that > supplied alot > of sales but were turned off by cars that didn’t have bench seats. Many of > these > older drivers turned to Buick (who as stated earlier will die off sooner > than > Buick can replace them with younger drivers).
Couldn’t agree less: 1. buick hasn’t made any interesting cars in years, its customer base is eroding, and it has no chance whatsoever of ever increasing its customer base or reinventing itself. The Buick name is a good one, but it might as well be Older-than-Oldsmobile. I live in LA, and although Buick’s might sell well in Michigan, I rarely see one at all on the road here (and more people live in LA than in the entire state of Michigan). The ergonomics are dated, the engines are too big, the ride is too squishy. Plus Buick has an image now of being old and boring, much like Oldsmobile’s, except with better quality control. This image is as well established as Sears or Montgomery Wards, unfortunately, it will hurt them in the long run. of course Buick will not dissappear any more than chevy, but GM need either one of these brands like it needs a hole in the head. 2. pontiac has some decent models that sell well here, e.g., the sunfire and grand am, as well as the Firebird. They are much nicer than the equivalent Chevy offerings, although, for the life of me, I dont know who came up with the Aztec or Montana, or why they are still selling Bonnevilles at all. 3, the baby boomer generation is a less important demographic in car-buying than the kids-of-boomers generation, which is as big, and is just passing 30… there is an additional tidal wave that is just hitting 17 right now. 4. GM doesn’t need tophase anything out, it needs to completely reorganize itself the way ford did, most of the cars it makes are several years behind demand and targeted poorly. The Envoy is the only one I can think of in recent times that is a good idea. The Caterra is a woefully misguided repeat of the Cimarron. Do you know that GM is giving $5000 factory-to-dealer on Catera’s right now? I mean, if you have to pay your dealers 5K to offload a car you might as well take it back and take it apart! Of course, whose idea it was to take the beautiful Opel sports sedan (if you have seen one in Europe you know what I mean) and turn it into a down-engineered and up-priced ugly Cadillac, I mean, what a moron this guy is. 5. Saturn hasn’t modernized either they are adopting the GM model of estabishing a market share to watch it erode. Now that Olds is gone, maybe we will see a new Saturn body. Plus the mid-size Saturn (also an uglified downengineered Opel) is probably the biggest dissapointment i have had in recent years. 6 dont get me wrong, i am a GMer, but it pisses me off to watch them throw it all away and watch Ford and the Japanese makers cash in.
Response:
I doubt Pontiac would be phased out . Isn’t the Grand Am the best seeling GM car right now?? h
Response:
199,111 miles on a 91 Bonneville , runs great h
Response:
> I doubt Pontiac would be phased out . Isn’t the Grand Am the best > seeling GM car right now?? > h
According to a fleet manager I spoke to, the "Buick" brands are definitely next on the chopping block. But he also said Olds isnt shutting down, it is just being rebranded along with all of its cars .. just marketing
Response:
>> I doubt Pontiac would be phased out . Isn’t the Grand Am the best > seeling GM car right now?? > h >According to a fleet manager I spoke to, the "Buick" brands are >definitely next on the chopping block. But he also said Olds isnt >shutting down, it is just being rebranded along with all of its cars >.. just marketing
Buick is quite profitable for GM, so probably not. Also, statistically, Buick is the most reliable brand. However, if you take into the consideration that they’re driven mostly by old people, you’ll have to wonder. GM doesn’t really make much more unreliable car compare to others. Its the really bad history from the 80s and before. Also, when 1 out of 3 car sold is a GM car, the horror stories will be out there. If you believe JD Powers and others, GM isn’t that far behind in terms of "initial quality". And if you look at the improvement numbers, GM will probably catch up to Toyota and Honda soon. (Honda’s quality actually decreased this year!)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I doubt Pontiac would be phased out . Isn’t the Grand Am the best >> seeling GM car right now?? >> h >According to a fleet manager I spoke to, the "Buick" brands are >definitely next on the chopping block. But he also said Olds isnt >shutting down, it is just being rebranded along with all of its cars >.. just marketing > Buick is quite profitable for GM, so probably not. > Also, statistically, Buick is the most reliable brand. However, if > you take into the consideration that they’re driven mostly by old > people, you’ll have to wonder. > GM doesn’t really make much more unreliable car compare to others. > Its the really bad history from the 80s and before. Also, when 1 out > of 3 car sold is a GM car, the horror stories will be out there. > If you believe JD Powers and others, GM isn’t that far behind in terms > of "initial quality". And if you look at the improvement numbers, GM > will probably catch up to Toyota and Honda soon. (Honda’s quality > actually decreased this year!)
No way will GM ever catch up with Toyota, you are having some sort of delusional fantasy. Toyota had 25% of the top awards 10 years ago, now they have more than half. They dominate every single category they have entered into, even ones they entered recently (eg. the Siena, and the small Lexus SUV). The ONLY GM car with a quality award is the Sonoma, and you can expect it to be booted out in a year or two by a Toyota. Toyota’s has less than 1 in 3 cars with ANY initial defect, the average GM has 1.5 initial quality defects per car (about average), this hasn’t changed in more than 8 years nor has GM made any efforts to improve quality in the last 8 years. In fact, circulate around a lot and look for defects on cars, you will find plenty on a GM lot, but you won’t find any on a Toyota lot. (dont get me wrong, I dont like Toyota’s cars, but I am not delusional about their quality either) This said, you are correct GM’s quality isn’t bad, but it ain’t as good as Ford’s, its main competitor, it ain’t as good as many of the Japanese cars, and it ain’t improving. Still I dont think this is GM’s problem, the problem is: marketing. They are making a bunch of cars nobody wants, or they come to market 3-5 years after a segment is hot (the Envoy is a good example of something that should have come out 3-5 years ago and would have outsold the Explorer as well). As far as Honda, you are right, their quality is overrated. The problem with Toyota is they havent been making cars with exactly the features Americans want (and Honda has), whereas they are getting better at marketing lately. Anyway, I think GM badly needs new management, and it has since the time they kicked out Ross Perot. Its too bad, a lot of great people in there with stupid management
Response:
203,000 92 Chevy 1500
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I doubt it, the Baby Boomer generation is a vast large one. It will take > years > before they will all die out. That would be bad for the economy, because > they make > up something like 75% of consumer spending. On the other hand, when they are > all > retired we would all be on our knees paying tax to support the pension funds. > > > I think GM will have to phase out one or two more brands, and Pontiac > > > seems > > > like a good candidate, maybe just keep the Firebird, or perhaps give the > > > Firebird > > > to the Buick brand. So you will have Buick Firebird instead of pontiac > > > firebird. > > Actually Pontiac has an identity and attracts younger buyers. Buick has > > decent > > sales and a good quality image but their customers are literally dying off. > > Oldmobile had finally gotten some decent product but was not attracting the > > younger owners needed fast enough to replace the older drivers that > > supplied alot > > of sales but were turned off by cars that didn’t have bench seats. Many of > > these > > older drivers turned to Buick (who as stated earlier will die off sooner > > than > > Buick can replace them with younger drivers). > Couldn’t agree less: > 1. buick hasn’t made any interesting cars in years, its customer base is > eroding, and it has no chance whatsoever of ever increasing its customer > base or reinventing itself. The Buick name is a good one, but it might > as well be Older-than-Oldsmobile. I live in LA, and although Buick’s > might sell well in Michigan, I rarely see one at all on the road here > (and more people live in LA than in the entire state of Michigan). The > ergonomics are dated, the engines are too big, the ride is too squishy. > Plus Buick has an image now of being old and boring, much like > Oldsmobile’s, except with better quality control. This image is as well > established as Sears or Montgomery Wards, unfortunately, it will hurt > them in the long run. of course Buick will not dissappear any more than > chevy, but GM need either one of these brands like it needs a hole in > the head. > 2. pontiac has some decent models that sell well here, e.g., the sunfire > and grand am, as well as the Firebird. They are much nicer than the > equivalent Chevy offerings, although, for the life of me, I dont know > who came up with the Aztec or Montana, or why they are still selling > Bonnevilles at all. > 3, the baby boomer generation is a less important demographic in > car-buying than the kids-of-boomers generation, which is as big, and is > just passing 30… there is an additional tidal wave that is just > hitting 17 right now. > 4. GM doesn’t need tophase anything out, it needs to completely > reorganize itself the way ford did, most of the cars it makes are > several years behind demand and targeted poorly. The Envoy is the only > one I can think of in recent times that is a good idea. The Caterra is > a woefully misguided repeat of the Cimarron. Do you know that GM is > giving $5000 factory-to-dealer on Catera’s right now? I mean, if you > have to pay your dealers 5K to offload a car you might as well take it > back and take it apart! Of course, whose idea it was to take the > beautiful Opel sports sedan (if you have seen one in Europe you know > what I mean) and turn it into a down-engineered and up-priced ugly > Cadillac, I mean, what a moron this guy is. > 5. Saturn hasn’t modernized either they are adopting the GM model of > estabishing a market share to watch it erode. Now that Olds is gone, > maybe we will see a new Saturn body. Plus the mid-size Saturn (also an > uglified downengineered Opel) is probably the biggest dissapointment i > have had in recent years. > 6 dont get me wrong, i am a GMer, but it pisses me off to watch them > throw it all away and watch Ford and the Japanese makers cash in.
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Response:
GM’s Quality Award could have gone to my 91 Bonneville. In the 10 years of driving it, its never once broken down, left me stranded or had any reoccuring problems. The usual things have been replaced due to wear, not defects. In the warranty period it went back to Pontiac 2 times, 1st time for an IAC motor & the second time to diagnos a cruise control problem, which they couldn’t detect. I later replaced the cruise transducer & the problem went away. This has been the best running car I’ve ever owned. There is so many parts on this car that are still original. ‘ll drive it to Florida tomorrow or point it toward California with no worries what so ever. Later this month the odometer will hit 200,000 miles, I can hardly wait!! h
Response:
>quality in the last 8 years. In fact, circulate around a lot and look >for defects on cars, you will find plenty on a GM lot, but you won’t >find any on a Toyota lot. (dont get me wrong, I dont like Toyota’s cars, >but I am not delusional about their quality either)
Ok, its not statistically significant, but my rental Camary had pretty bad creaking noise from the dash. (Then again, most of the GM rental cars I had also had creaking noise from the dash…) >This said, you are correct GM’s quality isn’t bad, but it ain’t as good >as Ford’s, its main competitor, it ain’t as good as many of the Japanese >cars, and it ain’t improving. Still I dont think this is GM’s problem, >the problem is: marketing. They are making a bunch of cars nobody wants, >or they come to market 3-5 years after a segment is hot (the Envoy is a >good example of something that should have come out 3-5 years ago and >would have outsold the Explorer as well).
GM had quietly passed Ford. Atleast in terms of initial quality according to JD Powers (I think). Its funny how GM doesn’t like to compare itself with the foreigners. Especially Cady. To them, Lexus doesn’t exist.. 
Its not marketing. Honda and Toyota (and Buick) proved that boring cars that is underpowered sells…. if its reliable. Chrysler, BMW, AUDI, and VW proved that unreliable cars can sell… if its physically attractive. GM doesn’t really make anything that is especially reliable, or especially attractive, so they look the losers. Not counting SUVs and Trucks (don’t know them), I can probably find a better replacement for any GM car out there. >As far as Honda, you are right, their quality is overrated. The problem >with Toyota is they havent been making cars with exactly the features >Americans want (and Honda has), whereas they are getting better at >marketing lately.
They use to be really good, maybe even better than Toyota. But about 5-10 years ago, they started slipping behind. Now, JD Power say they’ve even lowered their quality ratings. >Anyway, I think GM badly needs new management, and it has since the time >they kicked out Ross Perot. Its too bad, a lot of great people in there >with stupid management
GM need new everything! You see. There are 2 type of people who works for GM (Salary level): The ones who want the security of a big corporation, where you can basically not do much, get a small raise every year, get good benefits until you retire. The 2nd type is ultra aggressive, takes all the courses, try out all the new technologies on GM products (good or bad), so on their resume, they look great, with lots of knowledge and experiences. Few years later, they quit and join/form new companies and sell what they learn at GM back to GM! GM need people who actually care about where the company is going, not what the company will provide their company with. Management is a small part of it.
Response:
According to J.D. Powers, Buick is the most dependable American car.
