The old GM vs Imports debate- One man's experience
Question:
>>in its numerous brands. E.g. out of all of its US brands, it offers >just one station wagon. Surely there could be a few more to give >better product / brand differentiation as well as provide better >coverage to that market segment.
I agree completely. We wanted a Malibu wagon, but they obviously don’t make them. The Malibu Maxx that is coming in 2005 is a butt-ugly abomination. Brad
Response:
I have a freind that drives a Limo, its his car a 1995 Lincoln town car.. He gave me a ride on Sat and the ODO read 845,789 and some change.. Orginal motor and tranny.. He says that most of the Town cars at the airport have more miles than his…..He changes the oil every two weeks a Jiffy lube has a corporate account. Maybe that would account for the high lasting motor… Jake
Response:
>> As far as >reliability is concerned, I’ve seen way too many domestic vehicles pass the >200,000 mile mark without major work for quality to be an issue to me. > My dad had a ‘90 Festiva that is *still* >on the road today with over 312,000(!) mileson the original engine and >second tranny. He changed the oil regularly and never abused the car. >Actually, wasn’t the Festiva made by Kia using a Mazda design?
Yes. >Granted, Mazda is now effectively controlled by Ford (not sure if >that was true in 1990, but Mazda has had a close association with >Ford since 1979 or so).
By the way I have also owned, besides the Buick and the Honda, a Chrysler, Ford (2), VW (1966), Chevy pickup, Mazda, Subaru (2) and a Auto Union when I lived in Europe. I think Auto Union is now Audi? The worst was the Chevy pickup (1974). It gave a whole new meaning to the word rust. By 20000 miles the wheel wells were rusted out and the tailgate no longer worked properly due to rust. It was delivered new to me with 2 of the 4 Carb manifold nuts missing and the clutch failed at 30000 miles. At 40000 miles the radiator failed. At 70000 miles the rod bearing(s) had developed a knock. At 80000 miles it had to be junked. The VW was right behind the Chev-major overhaul of engine at 800000 miles and, over all, the worst designed car I have ever owned- it was designed for Europe in the 1930’s not for North America. It was in those years that domestics got such a bad reputation compared to the imports and generally it was well deserved in my opinion. For sheer build quality the Mazda was best. I forget the year (84?) and model-it was a hatch back station wagon with a 4 cyl rwd setup. I traded it in at 132000 miles. Over those miles nothing failed whatsoever. The only work on it that I can remember was a brake job. When I traded it in at 132000 miles it was running as good as the day I bought it new. Beowulf
Response:
The VW was right behind the Chev-major overhaul of > engine at 800000 miles and, over all, the worst designed car I have > ever owned- it was designed for Europe in the 1930’s not for North > Beowulf
Damn, I’d be tickled to death to get 800000 miles out of an engine. Dave
Response:
>I see car mags talking about how so and so car manufacturer builds >"world class cars". Why should I want a car built on some generic >frame that was designed to sell in India as well as North America? I >don’t want a "world class" car I want an American class car designed >for American driving conditions and tastes.
On the other hand, not everyone in the US has the same tastes or driving conditions. It would help in GM had a little more variety in its numerous brands. E.g. out of all of its US brands, it offers just one station wagon. Surely there could be a few more to give better product / brand differentiation as well as provide better coverage to that market segment. VW manages to put one sedan, two 2-door hatchbacks, one 4-door hatchback, one station wagon, one coupe, and two convertibles on one small car platform, while GM uses two small car platforms to offer two sedans and three coupes (two of which are essentially the same except for trim). VW also offers four (or perhaps six, if you count tuning variations of the same engine) different engines, while GM’s small cars all have the same engine. Wouldn’t it be better for GM to have a bit more variety in its offerings in order to appeal to more of the (in this example) small car market? Not everyone in the US looking for a small car wants a sedan or coupe with a 2.2L 140hp engine. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Response:
> As far as >reliability is concerned, I’ve seen way too many domestic vehicles pass the >200,000 mile mark without major work for quality to be an issue to me. > My dad had a ‘90 Festiva that is *still* >on the road today with over 312,000(!) mileson the original engine and >second tranny. He changed the oil regularly and never abused the car.
Actually, wasn’t the Festiva made by Kia using a Mazda design? Granted, Mazda is now effectively controlled by Ford (not sure if that was true in 1990, but Mazda has had a close association with Ford since 1979 or so). — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Response:
> I see car mags talking about how so and so car manufacturer builds > "world class cars". Why should I want a car built on some generic > frame that was designed to sell in India as well as North America? I > don’t want a "world class" car I want an American class car designed > for American driving conditions and tastes. > Beowulf
I’m so glad you brought up the point that you prefer an "American class car designed for American driving conditions and tastes." That statement really says a lot and is exactly how I feel. I could have been driving Toyotas, Nissans, or other imported vehicles but after the test drives I always seem to prefer the softer ride and higher torque that American cars tend to offer. Eveyone has a preference of course. I don’t like the idea of having to wind an engine up past 3K RPM in normal daily driving. As far as reliability is concerned, I’ve seen way too many domestic vehicles pass the 200,000 mile mark without major work for quality to be an issue to me. Aside from those very few "guaranteed to fail" situations like Ford 3.8 headgaskets I truly believe how well you maintain a vehicle and how you drive it make ALL the difference. My dad had a ‘90 Festiva that is *still* on the road today with over 312,000(!) mileson the original engine and second tranny. He changed the oil regularly and never abused the car. Co-worker has a ‘91 Lumina with over 287,000 on the original engine and tranny. Unfortunately the A/C no longer works. Roger
Response:
> It’s that sort of lack of respect for the customer that drives > people elsewhere.
Excellent idea! Go buy a Ford. Maybe that will help you lose your fixation with this non-issue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No argument from me on that. Great piece! My only beef (with GM in > particular) is, for example, when a customer would rather not have the auto > light control (the lights switching on/off themselves personally drive me > absolutely nuts!), as the customer I should have that option to turn the > "feature" off. American car companies seem less interested in listening to > their customer…still!!! And, to the point where they get rude about it > and send emails saying "..we will no longer accept email from you on this > subject…" It’s that sort of lack of respect for the customer that drives > people elsewhere. A great product alone won’t cut it if you’re still > treated in a way that is disrespectful. Otherwise, the car is great (‘03 > Malibu LS)! > It would appear the greatest majority of American agree with > you. Although Ford sells more individual brands in the majority > of its vehicle lines than anyone else, GM still sells the larger > number of total vehicles in the US and the world. From what I > see in our fleet service business most Japanese vehicles are way > over rated, when it comes to failures. They brake down just as > often as domestic brands and cost much more to repair and > maintain. When you consider that Japanese brands have a drive > home price as much as 30% HIGHER than their domestic competitors, > they are not a very good buy, IMO. One will often hear someone > say by 95 Japanese car is much better than my 85 domestic. Well > duh, if one owned a 85 japanese car you can bet the farm they > will say their 95 domestic is a better car as well. From what I > see in this business most manufactures are building great > vehicles today and the only real difference is price and style. > I personally have owned many Japanese vehicles over the years but > what bothers me about the Japanese assembling vehicles in the US > is the fact they pay their employees less, provide fewer benefits > and smaller pensions, pay no federal corporate income taxes yet > charge more for their vehicles. I own several vehicles and buy a > new car every year, selling the one that is two years old. I > believe American should do what the Japanese buyers do, help > their own economy first by buying products from their own > manufactures first. Others my chose to spend their money > differently but since 1997 I have bought only those vehicles made > in America of mostly American made parts and assembled my > American workers. By doing so I have saved a lot of money in the > process > mike hunt > > I think the American car bashers need to stop and take another > > good look > > Yes they did get a bad wrap in the 70’s and 80’s but I believe > > we are > > back in the race. I have several members of my family trying > > to > > convince me I need to buy Japanise. Just cant seem to go > > there. On > > occasion I have driven their Sentra, Legacy and Accord. Have > > also > > driven a Ultima and Camery rentals on business trips. One > > thing I have > > noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put > > the > > padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. Its > > always nice > > to slide back behind the wheel of my Grand Prix. This car with > > 125k, no > > major problems is every bit as tight and strong as when I > > bought it with > > 30k. Its a pleasure to take on long road trips with great > > performance. > > I’m certain my next car will be a member of the GM family. I > > like > > their styling and all the comfort at a very decent price!! > > Besides I > > think part of having American pride is having a car sitting in > > your > > drive way wearing an American name!!!! > > Just my humble opinion > > Tom
Response:
No argument from me on that. Great piece! My only beef (with GM in particular) is, for example, when a customer would rather not have the auto light control (the lights switching on/off themselves personally drive me absolutely nuts!), as the customer I should have that option to turn the "feature" off. American car companies seem less interested in listening to their customer…still!!! And, to the point where they get rude about it and send emails saying "..we will no longer accept email from you on this subject…" It’s that sort of lack of respect for the customer that drives people elsewhere. A great product alone won’t cut it if you’re still treated in a way that is disrespectful. Otherwise, the car is great (‘03 Malibu LS)! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It would appear the greatest majority of American agree with > you. Although Ford sells more individual brands in the majority > of its vehicle lines than anyone else, GM still sells the larger > number of total vehicles in the US and the world. From what I > see in our fleet service business most Japanese vehicles are way > over rated, when it comes to failures. They brake down just as > often as domestic brands and cost much more to repair and > maintain. When you consider that Japanese brands have a drive > home price as much as 30% HIGHER than their domestic competitors, > they are not a very good buy, IMO. One will often hear someone > say by 95 Japanese car is much better than my 85 domestic. Well > duh, if one owned a 85 japanese car you can bet the farm they > will say their 95 domestic is a better car as well. From what I > see in this business most manufactures are building great > vehicles today and the only real difference is price and style. > I personally have owned many Japanese vehicles over the years but > what bothers me about the Japanese assembling vehicles in the US > is the fact they pay their employees less, provide fewer benefits > and smaller pensions, pay no federal corporate income taxes yet > charge more for their vehicles. I own several vehicles and buy a > new car every year, selling the one that is two years old. I > believe American should do what the Japanese buyers do, help > their own economy first by buying products from their own > manufactures first. Others my chose to spend their money > differently but since 1997 I have bought only those vehicles made > in America of mostly American made parts and assembled my > American workers. By doing so I have saved a lot of money in the > process > mike hunt > I think the American car bashers need to stop and take another > good look > Yes they did get a bad wrap in the 70’s and 80’s but I believe > we are > back in the race. I have several members of my family trying > to > convince me I need to buy Japanise. Just cant seem to go > there. On > occasion I have driven their Sentra, Legacy and Accord. Have > also > driven a Ultima and Camery rentals on business trips. One > thing I have > noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put > the > padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. Its > always nice > to slide back behind the wheel of my Grand Prix. This car with > 125k, no > major problems is every bit as tight and strong as when I > bought it with > 30k. Its a pleasure to take on long road trips with great > performance. > I’m certain my next car will be a member of the GM family. I > like > their styling and all the comfort at a very decent price!! > Besides I > think part of having American pride is having a car sitting in > your > drive way wearing an American name!!!! > Just my humble opinion > Tom
Response:
>>>One thing I have >>noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put the >>padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. >That’s what I noticed about my friends brand spanking new Altima….I >was sitting in the back seat and it felt like I was driving in the >Cavalier I had prior to getting the Malibu.
My Cavalier is a helluva lot more comfortable than any Japanese car I’ve ever driven. Jap cars just feel so claustrophobic.
Response:
In my original post I said: >My own opinion is that most people, If they would ignore all the >opinions of the motor heads that write for the Car mags, and consider >only their own practical day to day driving requirements would come to >the same conclusion I have- The Hondas and Toyotas, while good, are >not all that much better (if at all given the price differential).
I think this goes to the heart of the matter. Most folks don’t have the confidence to decide for themselves what kind of car they need. They want to be told. The problem is that the people telling them what they should buy are too much into the technical aspects of cars without any real understanding of the reality of day to day driving for most folks. Just because some car tester has some technical knowledge of cars does not qualify them to say what car is suited for a particular purpose. To buy a car based on what some car magazine says is like buying a new house based on the opinion of your carpenter. There is a lot more to it than just technical considerations. Case in point: A co-worker questioned why I would buy a car with "outdated" OH v’s rather than a OHC. I asked him- Is his OHC engine: Quieter? More trouble free? Smoother? Cheaper to repair? Easy to get parts for? more maintenance free? Better mileage? Longer service life? Just what is the advantage, to most driver, of a OHC engine compared to a OHV engine in day to day driving? He could only mouth what he has been reading in the car press. I see car mags talking about how so and so car manufacturer builds "world class cars". Why should I want a car built on some generic frame that was designed to sell in India as well as North America? I don’t want a "world class" car I want an American class car designed for American driving conditions and tastes. Beowulf
Response:
Nissan’s seats are relatively comfortable compared to Honda’s. I dread riding in friends’ Accords and Civics because it feels like I’m sitting on a park bench. I’m not biased (I almost bought a Maxima last year.. ended up with the lower-powered but much cheaper and equally comfortable Intrigue), they do build tightly assembled cars, very few problems, but I swear you’d have to be a masochist to buy one. Their dashes (all Japanese makes) are full of small buttons also.. this is highly annoying. You’d think they’d hire people who understand that drivers don’t want to take their eyes off the road to find the 5 mm x 10 mm button that changes radio stations.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>One thing I have >>noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put the >>padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. > That’s what I noticed about my friends brand spanking new Altima….I > was sitting in the back seat and it felt like I was driving in the > Cavalier I had prior to getting the Malibu. > Looks great, but the ride quality didn’t impress me any. > Brad
Response:
>>One thing I have >noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put the >padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension.
That’s what I noticed about my friends brand spanking new Altima….I was sitting in the back seat and it felt like I was driving in the Cavalier I had prior to getting the Malibu. Looks great, but the ride quality didn’t impress me any. Brad
Response:
>The Mazda, for it was his fault for not changing the timing belt. It did not >matter that the Buick has a timing chain, nor did he realize that over the >course of ownership that costs of each car would have been approx the same.
One could argue that if the long term costs are the same, the car that needs fewer unexpected repairs is less hassle. It also matters whether the unexpected repairs make the car undrivable and/or require a mechanic to do. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Response:
I think the American car bashers need to stop and take another good look Yes they did get a bad wrap in the 70’s and 80’s but I believe we are back in the race. I have several members of my family trying to convince me I need to buy Japanise. Just cant seem to go there. On occasion I have driven their Sentra, Legacy and Accord. Have also driven a Ultima and Camery rentals on business trips. One thing I have noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put the padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. Its always nice to slide back behind the wheel of my Grand Prix. This car with 125k, no major problems is every bit as tight and strong as when I bought it with 30k. Its a pleasure to take on long road trips with great performance. I’m certain my next car will be a member of the GM family. I like their styling and all the comfort at a very decent price!! Besides I think part of having American pride is having a car sitting in your drive way wearing an American name!!!! Just my humble opinion Tom
Response:
When I can get my Roadmaster away from the SO I really enjoy it….. Jake
Response:
It would appear the greatest majority of American agree with you. Although Ford sells more individual brands in the majority of its vehicle lines than anyone else, GM still sells the larger number of total vehicles in the US and the world. From what I see in our fleet service business most Japanese vehicles are way over rated, when it comes to failures. They brake down just as often as domestic brands and cost much more to repair and maintain. When you consider that Japanese brands have a drive home price as much as 30% HIGHER than their domestic competitors, they are not a very good buy, IMO. One will often hear someone say by 95 Japanese car is much better than my 85 domestic. Well duh, if one owned a 85 japanese car you can bet the farm they will say their 95 domestic is a better car as well. From what I see in this business most manufactures are building great vehicles today and the only real difference is price and style. I personally have owned many Japanese vehicles over the years but what bothers me about the Japanese assembling vehicles in the US is the fact they pay their employees less, provide fewer benefits and smaller pensions, pay no federal corporate income taxes yet charge more for their vehicles. I own several vehicles and buy a new car every year, selling the one that is two years old. I believe American should do what the Japanese buyers do, help their own economy first by buying products from their own manufactures first. Others my chose to spend their money differently but since 1997 I have bought only those vehicles made in America of mostly American made parts and assembled my American workers. By doing so I have saved a lot of money in the process mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the American car bashers need to stop and take another > good look > Yes they did get a bad wrap in the 70’s and 80’s but I believe > we are > back in the race. I have several members of my family trying > to > convince me I need to buy Japanise. Just cant seem to go > there. On > occasion I have driven their Sentra, Legacy and Accord. Have > also > driven a Ultima and Camery rentals on business trips. One > thing I have > noticed about these cars is they seem to have forgotten to put > the > padding in the seats and the spring in the suspension. Its > always nice > to slide back behind the wheel of my Grand Prix. This car with > 125k, no > major problems is every bit as tight and strong as when I > bought it with > 30k. Its a pleasure to take on long road trips with great > performance. > I’m certain my next car will be a member of the GM family. I > like > their styling and all the comfort at a very decent price!! > Besides I > think part of having American pride is having a car sitting in > your > drive way wearing an American name!!!! > Just my humble opinion > Tom
Response:
In 2000 the SO’s 84 Volvo shit the bed.. In the driveway it just died… The front end just cracked from the rust, not bad 340,000 miles…. Enough of that… It did its job…. We were tight on money the next door neighboor brought home two new cars a 2000 Dodge Minvan and a 2000 BMW.. He had a 1988 Honda Accord that he had bought brand new and it had 120,000 miles on it… I walked over and gave him $1100.00 for the Honda. The SO was not happy cause it was ALOT smaller than her Volvo.. But she understood money was tight…. Fast forward to 2003, the Honda is in the garage sitting there, she won’t drive it.. HATES it… Our Volvo that we had is in the body shop, since Dec 29. She put about 40,000 miles on her Honda before she said thats it….. She is driving my 1992 Buick Roadmaster to work and loving it, as she puts it.. Its like a tank no one gets in her way. I think that GM makes some great cars, they make some crappy ones also. Hey so Jake
Response:
>The Mazda went to 120K miles with NO REPAIRS whatsoever until it’s timing belt >broke. The lowest estimate for a rebuilt engine was around $1800. >Which was a better car to him? >The Mazda, for it was his fault for not changing the timing belt. It did not >matter that the Buick has a timing chain, nor did he realize that over the >course of ownership that costs of each car would have been approx the same.
Personally, I find cars with a timing belt to be a pain as I always think a chain has higher ultimate reliability than a belt. However, if I had a car with a belt, I would change it on schedule, and not let it go 120K miles. Perhaps the best car for him would have been the Mazda maintained on the correct preventive maintenance schedule, and otherwise with no maintenance required? Ray
Response:
I’ll share a story here; my brother in law bought both a used late 1980s Buick Century and Mazda 626. Both cars were approx 20K miles when he bought them. At 80K miles the Buick needed a water pump, AC compressor, and various other small repairs that totaled to about $1800. The Buick went another 90K miles without even a cv boot before he traded it for a Chrysler minivan. The Mazda went to 120K miles with NO REPAIRS whatsoever until it’s timing belt broke. The lowest estimate for a rebuilt engine was around $1800. Which was a better car to him? The Mazda, for it was his fault for not changing the timing belt. It did not matter that the Buick has a timing chain, nor did he realize that over the course of ownership that costs of each car would have been approx the same. Maybe it is not apples to apples for comparison, but in his mind, the Buick was a piece of shit compared to the Mazda. Have a nice day! Bill 88 Lancer Shelby 91 LeBaron Convertible 00 Chevy Impala LS
Response:
None, I owned a 92 Honda Accord wagon. This car was terrible in the snow. Parts cost twice that of a domestic car. At 70k miles it needed a timing belt change. Scheduled maint. I’m a mechanic, but I can do very little at home. We have a one car garage at our condo unit, and the association dose not permit repairs in the driveway. I can’t take it to work because I work for a municipality. The city won’t let me work on my own car in the shop due to insurance, and conflict of interests (Tax dollars to run the shop). Anyhow, we also had a 92′ Chevy Lumina at this time. The Lumina had 115k miles on it. I never had to make any major repairs to the car. I purchased it at 102k miles. This thing ran like it came off the factory line. I sold the car to my sister at 130k miles. It now has 150k on it, and still running strong (burns no oil, no engine noise). She says this thing is better than her old 88′ Cadillac. On the other hand,… the Honda cost me an arm and a leg in parts. Labor is free for me,… I’m a mechanic. This car cost me so much in parts, that I traded it for a 99′ GMC Jimmy. It has more payload area, and other than normal maintenance, this truck has been doing great. All of the parts I put into the Honda cost about $1800 (this dose not include labor). The parts I put into that 102k Lumina, cost me about $300, untill I sold it to my sister. To date, I have not had to fix the Lumina for her. She loves the car. Lots of room, and when you close the door,…. you know it’s made of U.S. steel. I’m a former GM mechanic. I don’t push the GM product on anyone, but those that think they got a great deal on that used Japanese car, have another thing comming. Purchase what makes you happy. I’ll puchase what makes my wallet fatter in the long run. Today domestic cars are as good as the imported. Just lay off all the electronic toys. The more basic the car, the better. GMdude
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I bought my 1992 Buick Roadmaster last August, to me its a winter car. I travel alot and I can’t imagine being in anything else but a big car….. Big so far purs like a kitten and only costs $2500.00. The imports make some great cars… But for me and my driving habits I prefer a big car….. Jake
Response:
It’s 1994 and my Wife and I are driving an old beater. At that time, due to a death in the family, we get a substantial (at least to us) inheritance. So we both decide to go out and each buy a new car of our own choice. My wife bought a Buick Century V6 and I bought a Honda accord with a 4 cylinder. The Honda cost more. They both have similar equipment-Auto, air, etc. They are now both at approx 120000 miles+. Our experience, in general, with both over the last 8 years: The drive train-engine, trans, cv joints etc….both cars have been more or less trouble free. Note: both cars have had Mobile 1 in them since about 10000 miles. The interior fit and finish appears to be superior on the Honda but through the years we have not had anymore problems with bits and pieces failing on the Buick then on the Honda. The key lock on the trunk of the Buick failed. The subsystems such as air conditioning, heater, defroster, windshield washers/wipers on both cars have been trouble free. However we have found that all of the above are much better implemented on the Buick-For instance the Air and heater on the Buick is both more effective and quite then they are on the Honda-more temperature control less noise. As far as we are concerned the interior design of the Buick is superior to the Honda. Seating position, room, quietness, wind noise etc is much better on the Buick. We always prefer the Buick over the Honda for long trips. The personality of the Accord is compact and that of the Buick one of a true mid-size car. Because the Buick is much quilter, the sound system sounds much better than on the Honda. I listen to music on the Buick and just turn on the radio on the Honda when I want weather and news reports. The Honda is (marginally) a better city car. It’s snappy off of a stop light and handles like a race car compared to the Buick. It has a light quick feel to it that lends it’s self to city driving. We live in the snow belt. The Buick has far better traction on snow and ice. We usually take the Buick during winter months. In snow, compared to the Honda, the Buick drives like it has four wheel drive. Shifts on the Buick are smoother and less noticeable. Repair parts are far more expensive on the Honda. Bottom line: Although the Honda may very well be a "better" built car than the Buick that advantage has not been all that apparent in practical day to day driving over the last eight years. Problems with both cars are about equal however the Buick has proven it’s self to be a better design for the kind of driving we do. Finally-my Wife, last week, rolled the Buick over in a snow storm and it was totaled. Based on our experience we did not hesitate to replace it with a 2002 Buick Century with 15000 miles on it for $11800 loaded. A comparable Accord would have cost at least $5000 more. My own opinion is that most people, If they would ignore all the opinions of the motor heads that write for the Car mags, and consider only their own practical day to day driving requirements would come to the same conclusion I have- The Hondas and Toyotas, while good, are not all that much better (if at all given the price differential). Just one man ’s actual driving experience and opinion over the last eight years Beowulf
