Motor Oil
Question:
Can someone tell me the difference between natural/conventional motor oils and the synthetics and 100% synthetics? I am just wondering what kind I should use for my 2000 GMC Jimmy. I have a small motorcycle, and I have always been told to use a good natural oil, and to never use synthetics. I am not sure why, and have never asked. I am just wondering if this was similar for a truck, or if it indeed better for trucks to use synthetics.
Response:
I’m using Synthetic in my 94 with the 4.3L. Right now it’s in the shop (for body work, not engine work) and have had no problems. I switched to full synthetic oil, after a regular diet of dino oil, at around 80K miles. > Can someone tell me the difference between natural/conventional motor > oils and the synthetics and 100% synthetics? I am just wondering what > kind I should use for my 2000 GMC Jimmy. > I have a small motorcycle, and I have always been told to use a good > natural oil, and to never use synthetics. I am not sure why, and have > never asked. I am just wondering if this was similar for a truck, or if > it indeed better for trucks to use synthetics.
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Response:
Well, in a nutshell, they’re better, particularly for extreme heat and cold, but they cost quite a bit more. As for your motorcycle, I can’t think of any reason why you wouldn’t want to use a synthetic, with a small hot-running air-cooled engine you’d think that a synthetic would be ideal. — Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada Home Page: http://members.home.net/hancockr
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can someone tell me the difference between natural/conventional motor > oils and the synthetics and 100% synthetics? I am just wondering what > kind I should use for my 2000 GMC Jimmy. > I have a small motorcycle, and I have always been told to use a good > natural oil, and to never use synthetics. I am not sure why, and have > never asked. I am just wondering if this was similar for a truck, or if > it indeed better for trucks to use synthetics.
Response:
Hello, Motorcycle manufacturers that tell you to use regular oil instead of synthetic have a reason. Usually its because the engine has a wet clutch and they are afraid anything but plain oil may make it slip. Change it more often for better protection. Check with your dealer to find out for sure if this is the case. Use the most expensive oil in your truck you can afford. Synthetics are definitely better.
> Can someone tell me the difference between natural/conventional motor > oils and the synthetics and 100% synthetics? I am just wondering what > kind I should use for my 2000 GMC Jimmy. > I have a small motorcycle, and I have always been told to use a good > natural oil, and to never use synthetics. I am not sure why, and have > never asked. I am just wondering if this was similar for a truck, or if > it indeed better for trucks to use synthetics.
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Response:
You sure know how to start an argument! This is personal opinion. Right for me. I am not convinced that for day to day use, synthetics offer any real advantage over ‘natural’ oils or blends. Most important is to regularly and faithfully change the oil and filter in your vehicle, AT LEAST as often as the mfg. recommends (more often won’t hurt!) Todays engines will easily go 200,000 miles or more with proper routine maintenance. I just traded my 94 Gran Prix with 200,000. Still ran fine, and burned no oil. Just got tired of it after 7 years! Foolow the guidelines in the owners manual. It really is good ingo and a good maintenance routine. There are no ’secrets’ to long engine life. Just simple good care will suffice! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can someone tell me the difference between natural/conventional motor > oils and the synthetics and 100% synthetics? I am just wondering what > kind I should use for my 2000 GMC Jimmy. > I have a small motorcycle, and I have always been told to use a good > natural oil, and to never use synthetics. I am not sure why, and have > never asked. I am just wondering if this was similar for a truck, or if > it indeed better for trucks to use synthetics.
Response:
> You mean it’s cleaned and resold to households which have heating furnaces > which run on "heating oil" ?
There are furnaces specifically designed to burn used motor oil. The ones that I’ve seen have been commercial applications, like an auto repair shop. Ken (MI)
Response:
To those who don’t know…the brand of motor oil CAN make a difference! I may be stating the carbon or soot name wrong…but I know that there is a difference. Being an old mechanic sometimes those company sponsored classes do give out good info… Some brands of motor oil have a high concentration of carbon or soot in them. Others are low. For those of you that want a blast from the past…remember removing the valve covers and seeing solid chunks of garbage soot(carbon) inside? You would have to scrape that junk out. That was from the motor oil that had high ratios of carbon. Several of the brands that were notorious for this but I won’t mention them. Today things have improved but there is still alot of "crappy" motor oil out there. Even the old bad brands of oil have improved but still haven’t caught up to the big three that produce very good quality oil. The "low carbon" oils are: Valvoline, Havoline, Quaker State. For those of you that want maximum protection, then I would suggest the Syn/Tec type oil. They run $2-$3 a quart and is a blend of regular oil and synthetic. The synthetic doesn’t break down in viscosity under high heat as does regular oil (turns to water). For those who want to spend the bug money…then use straight synthetic. All my vehicles: 3 cars & 1 motorcycle w/wet clutch use syntec blended oil. A Buick Reatta, Porsche 944, Porsche 928 and my Yamaha 1100 cruiser. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a motor oil question, although it is unrelated to Tom’s original > question. > How much of a difference does motor oil brand make. Will Castol really > protect my engine more against my aggressive driving techniques??? Is > generic just as good as anythign else. I recently got a good price on a > case of 5W30, however my next oil change will be during warmer weather. > What kind of advantage will there be in using 10W30 during the warmer > weather instead of 5W30? > — > None. Both will still be 30 weight when it warms up. As far as brand, I > don’t really care. I buy whats cheapest usually for the major brands. > Which for the last few years has been mobil. It’s the cheapest at auto > zone etc…I think regularly changing it is much more important than the > brand. Just stay away from the cheapy reclaimed stuff. Not that it won’t > work, but the price difference between it and the lowest price major > brand is not enough to make it worth going that route. Many reclaimed > oils don’t have as good of detergents from what I hear..MK > — > http://web.wt.net/~nm5k
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a motor oil question, although it is unrelated to Tom’s original > question. > How much of a difference does motor oil brand make. Will Castol really > protect my engine more against my aggressive driving techniques??? Is > generic just as good as anythign else. I recently got a good price on a > case of 5W30, however my next oil change will be during warmer weather. > What kind of advantage will there be in using 10W30 during the warmer > weather instead of 5W30? > — > None. Both will still be 30 weight when it warms up. As far as brand, I > don’t really care. I buy whats cheapest usually for the major brands. > Which for the last few years has been mobil. It’s the cheapest at auto > zone etc…I think regularly changing it is much more important than the > brand. Just stay away from the cheapy reclaimed stuff. Not that it won’t > work, but the price difference between it and the lowest price major > brand is not enough to make it worth going that route. Many reclaimed > oils don’t have as good of detergents from what I hear..MK
There will be differences in 5W-30 and 10W-30. For one, the 5W-30 will contain a lighter weight base oil and is likely more volatile than a comparable 10W-30. The 5W-30 may contain more viscosity index improvers, which tend to break down. A 5W-30 motor oil tends to have lower "internal drag" and might yield slightly better fuel economy. I tend to use what the manufacturer recommends, and wouldn’t worry too much about the volatility or VI improver breakdown if regular oil changes are done according to the manufacturer’s severe schedule.
Response:
> > Leaks or seepage is worse with synthetics. This is true even in new > engines.
Where did you find this? I have synthetic in 3 boxes on an 84 saab with no lose of oil, in engine, tranny or power steering. –Chris
Response:
Tried it in an old Volvo; rear main seal leaked like crazy, still leaks after several changes back to regular. Mitsubishi 2.6; valve cover gasket seeped, couldn’t make it stop with various gaskets, stickums, whatever. Kept using it anyway. Honda civic; no leaks. > > Leaks or seepage is worse with synthetics. This is true even in new > > engines. > Where did you find this? I have synthetic in 3 boxes on an 84 saab with > no lose of oil, in engine, tranny or power steering. > –Chris
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Response:
> I have a motor oil question, although it is unrelated to Tom’s original > question. > How much of a difference does motor oil brand make. Will Castol really > protect my engine more against my aggressive driving techniques??? Is > generic just as good as anythign else. I recently got a good price on a > case of 5W30, however my next oil change will be during warmer weather. > What kind of advantage will there be in using 10W30 during the warmer > weather instead of 5W30? > —
None. Both will still be 30 weight when it warms up. As far as brand, I don’t really care. I buy whats cheapest usually for the major brands. Which for the last few years has been mobil. It’s the cheapest at auto zone etc…I think regularly changing it is much more important than the brand. Just stay away from the cheapy reclaimed stuff. Not that it won’t work, but the price difference between it and the lowest price major brand is not enough to make it worth going that route. Many reclaimed oils don’t have as good of detergents from what I hear..MK — http://web.wt.net/~nm5k
Response:
When you see a foamy oil, you will know it. You did measure the oil while the car is on a flat surface. If not then you can be anywhere at all for an actual oil level. I might also note that it’s the dealer’s problem if the oil level causes problems as the problems will happen quite quickly if anything happens. Oil used for the first few miles is the oil installed by the manufacturer and they put in a fixed amount there in the factory before starting the engine up for the first time. That oil is (has been called) break-in oil and it should be changed out after the first few miles of the car’s life. — Bob May Remember that computers do exactly what you tell them to do, not what you think that you told them! Bob May
Response:
> I am a scientist…a chemist. > Leaks or seepage is worse with synthetics. This is true even in new > engines. > Now, the above ‘doubts’ may be without basis. I freely admit that.
Must be a new scientific method I’m unfamiliar with.
Response:
I imagine any sort of scientific method would be unfamiliar to you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Must be a new scientific method I’m unfamiliar with.
Response:
> > I am a scientist…a chemist. … > Can motor oil be recycled > into a condition resellable as ‘new’ oil? > Yes. Proper recycling of hydrocarbon oils can yield a product that is > actually better > than the virgin oil. BUT, you must do a quality job of recycling.
Can fully synthetic oils be recycled? What do ‘they’ (i.e. the waste depot where I take my old oil) do in the case of synthetic oil? Do they just mix it in with the regular oil? (a local garage where I take my oil somtimes has an undergrund storage tank; I think they pour the oil into it– how they pump it out though I wonder– through an opening (a metal strainer) in the parking lot pavement becasue once I asked to keep my containers and they told me to just pour the oil into that pavement opening) > itself altered during its service time insdie an engine? (Or, is it just > dirtied by contaminants?) > Olefinic fractions of hydrocarbon oils can be polymerized or, better said, > oligomerized. This is the improvement you would see from quality re-refined > oils. > It was the same price as ‘brand new’ oil so if > somone were to buy it I guess it would be only because they wanted to do > less harm to the environment. > Environment is only one concern. Waste oil can also be burned for winter > heating.
You mean it’s cleaned and resold to households which have heating furnaces which run on "heating oil" ? > CO2 will be primarily released, and as you know, burning oil smells bad. As > previously, > properly re-refined hydrocarbon oils can technically be superior to the > virgin ones.
Would the re-refining change these propeties or do they change themselves while inside the engine (before being re-refined)?
Response:
> I am a scientist…a chemist. … > How environmentally-friendly is regular motor oil?
Not as bad as you might think. Bacteria can degrade hydrocarbon oils reasonably well onshore. Offshore it takes a little longer… Key is that the oils are paraffinic, which many or most are. Can motor oil be recycled > into a condition resellable as ‘new’ oil?
Yes. Proper recycling of hydrocarbon oils can yield a product that is actually better than the virgin oil. BUT, you must do a quality job of recycling. Can the dirt and acid and other > contaminants be 100% removed ?
Yes, clearly you can. Are the chemical/material properties of oil > itself altered during its service time insdie an engine? (Or, is it just > dirtied by contaminants?)
Olefinic fractions of hydrocarbon oils can be polymerized or, better said, oligomerized. This is the improvement you would see from quality re-refined oils. > About 10 years ago a local harware supply strated selling "Enviro-oil’ which > was ‘reconditioned’ used motor oil plus, I think, 50% new oil. It didn’t > sell so they pulled it off the shelf. It had the same performance label > (SG—-, whatever, I don’t recall) as new oils so I guess it was as good. Do > you think it was as good as new oil if it was good enough to get the > standard performance label?
Depends upon the credibility and quality of the manufacturer. Many companies can pass tests, but can’t deliver a quality product over the long haul. The standard performance rating label is the result of a series of tests, but is no guarantee that every batch is consistent with the standard, UNLESS management of the refiner demands quality. (Many just demand profit, and hide the defective batches.) It was the same price as ‘brand new’ oil so if > somone were to buy it I guess it would be only because they wanted to do > less harm to the environment.
Environment is only one concern. Waste oil can also be burned for winter heating. CO2 will be primarily released, and as you know, burning oil smells bad. As previously, properly re-refined hydrocarbon oils can technically be superior to the virgin ones. There is no free lunch, and no perfect hamburger.
Response:
> I am a scientist…a chemist. …
How environmentally-friendly is regular motor oil? Can motor oil be recycled into a condition resellable as ‘new’ oil? Can the dirt and acid and other contaminants be 100% removed ? Are the chemical/material properties of oil itself altered during its service time insdie an engine? (Or, is it just dirtied by contaminants?) About 10 years ago a local harware supply strated selling "Enviro-oil’ which was ‘reconditioned’ used motor oil plus, I think, 50% new oil. It didn’t sell so they pulled it off the shelf. It had the same performance label (SG—-, whatever, I don’t recall) as new oils so I guess it was as good. Do you think it was as good as new oil if it was good enough to get the standard performance label? It was the same price as ‘brand new’ oil so if somone were to buy it I guess it would be only because they wanted to do less harm to the environment.
Response:
> > I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are > better… > They have some good properties, some less good ones, > Which are the "less good" properties?
Polyalphaolefin base oil has a tendency to harden/shrink seals. That’s probably what’s responsible for a good portion of the leaks that some people see. The inherent detergency of the base oil is typically not as good as a conventional petroleum base (additional detergents are usually added). Mobil had a problem with their AV-1 motor oil for reciprocating aircraft engines. Aviation fuel contains lead, and in certain engines, lead sludge built up in low oil-flow areas. The oil didn’t "scavenge" the lead, and some engines saw some rather sever damage. So knowing all that, I still use Mobil 1 0W-30. None of the negatives have affected me, and I consider the positives to be well worth the price.
Response:
> > I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are > better… > They have some good properties, some less good ones, > Which are the "less good" properties?
COST
Response:
> I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are > better… > They have some good properties, some less good ones, > Which are the "less good" properties?
I am a scientist…a chemist. I don’t accept all the advertising claims without proof, nor do I dismiss claims on rumor. Cost is an issue which is somewhat a factor. Not a big one, but a factor nonetheless. Leaks or seepage is worse with synthetics. This is true even in new engines. It is not limited to old engines or those in bad shape. It isn’t such a factor in the USA, but it is here, where leaks are, at inspection time, viewed more seriously. Chemically, synthetics are for the most part esters, made of organic acids and alcohols. Esters have a degree of chemical instability when contaminated by water, glycol, etc. It should not be a problem in most motor service, but it is a potential area for problems which hydrocarbon oils don’t have. I think that synthetic oils are hyped about extended oil changes too. I am not yet convinced by data that long oil change periods are good, but this is claimed by the proponents of synthetics. I would like to see firm data on this. Now, the above ‘doubts’ may be without basis. I freely admit that. I use synthetic in my Passat because that is what VW specifies, and they are the ones who will eventually have to warranty any problems. There has been a small amount of seepage around valve cover gaskets since the car was new. Not a big issue yet. Over the years I have used fossil motor oils too, and I find that fossil oils changed frequently give fine service, little to no detectable engine wear, etc. I have no complaint with them. I find that some people here parrot what they hear on TV, or in conversation, and accept it as truth. I appreciate improvements in everything as much as the next guy, but I am a bit slower to accept everything I read.
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> I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are > better… > They have some good properties, some less good ones,
Which are the "less good" properties?
Response:
I imagine him thinking "costs more" and "more leaks". That really isn’t a property of the oil, it’s what happens when your car is not in good condition. The costs more is just the price people will pay for a superior oil. You can’t tell me if you went to the store and saw a dino oil for $2.00 and a synthetic for $2.00 you would chose the dino oil over the synthetic? The only reason I’d even consider the dino oil is if I had a brand new engine that needed break in. I hear that synthetic isn’t good for break in but then again there are engines that come from the factory with synthetic and you don’t see them crapping out on everyone.. *shrugs* go figure.. -Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are > better… > They have some good properties, some less good ones, > Which are the "less good" properties?
Response:
But the same is true in regard to Synthetic oil yet we > all know synthetic is better – so we therefore know that the API Grade > is not measuring EVERY significant property, just some of them.
I respectfully do not agree that we all know that synthetic oils are better… They have some good properties, some less good ones, and are competent to the job… But ‘better’?….. That has not been adequately proven to me so far
Response:
> Does synthetic oil contain the same kinds of additives (such as cleaning > agents) as natural oil?
Yes > Is synthetic oil recyclable? ("environmentally friendly")
Yes — Mike Walsh West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.
Response:
> Almost every new car I’ve had had the oil "overfilled". Drive the car > for a while then stop and immediately check the oil. If it looks > "normal", that is, not foamy, then you don’t need to worry about it > being overfilled.
You mean the foaminess can be seen in the oil which clings to the measuring dipstick? > Whether it has "break in oil" is hard to say but I > seriously doubt that it does. I’ve always done my first oil changes > at 500 miles so if there was any special breakin oil it didn’t stay in > long!!
So the dealer is lying? Or do they want me to have problems ASAP so that they can drum up business for their repair shop? :-) > While there is no need anymore for much of a breakin period, I > would not rev the engine to redline till it had at least a couple > thousand miles on it – better safe then sorry, once you scuff the > cylinder walls you can’t un-scuff em so why risk it. Give the rings > and cam a chance to seat in before you start beating on them.
My car is revving quite a bit (i.e. fairly loud sound) at 3000-4000 rpm; I can’t imagine ever taking it to the 6-7000 redline. Durig the first 2000km I kept it inder 4000rpm. Is it actually healthy to occassionally rev the engine to the redline? (even more so for DOHC engines?)
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> …. we > all know synthetic is better – so we therefore know that the API Grade > is not measuring EVERY significant property, just some of them. For > the cost difference I’m not willing to risk using a weird brand oil. > On the other hand, of equipment people at work just buy the oil in > bulk from the lowest bidder and it seems to work fine so the API > grading would appear sufficient for practical use.
Does synthetic oil contain the same kinds of additives (such as cleaning agents) as natural oil? Is synthetic oil recyclable? ("environmentally friendly")
Response:
I have a motor oil question, although it is unrelated to Tom’s original question. How much of a difference does motor oil brand make. Will Castol really protect my engine more against my aggressive driving techniques??? Is generic just as good as anythign else. I recently got a good price on a case of 5W30, however my next oil change will be during warmer weather. What kind of advantage will there be in using 10W30 during the warmer weather instead of 5W30? — To reply replace champs with msu www.msu.edu/~sasakand
Response:
In general, break-in oils are not used anymore. New cars (although I will leave room for possible exceptions) come with regular grades of motor oil. The engines don’t need long break-in periods. Improvements in parts quality, uniformity, and assembly have removed this issue. To get the best life out of the car, I would use a premium namebrand motor oil, and change it often…OFTEN.. I change at 3,000 miles, although -I know – they say you can extend the change interval. (Nothing against cheaper oils. Most of them are quite well up to the job, but you don’t really save a lot of money this way. Learn to change the oil yourself. The dealership will screw you on price and still screw up the job. A quickie lube place might screw you at a much lower price. I tried Castrol on one new car, the engine scuffed a piston short of 20,000 miles, and I never went back for more. (Honestly, this was not likely to have been the reason the piston broke, but it built up a prejudice in my mind) Having too much oil in the crankcase can be a problem as another poster commented. Probably the dh at the dealership overfilled it. Remove the excess. Take your pick of fossil oil versus synthetic. Both are good.
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I have a new car (1 month old 2001 Mazda Protege 2.0l DOHC) and this morning I checked the oil level for the first time. The oil extended 1 to 2 " above the max mark on the dipstick. The dealer says the oil is special oil for the break-in period. I haven’t yet asked the dealer why oil level is so high. Is it supposed to be overfilled? Is more or less (as long as it’s above min required) oil better for a new engine during the break-in period? I didn’t measure wrong because I repeated inserting the dipstick several times and wiped thoroughly before each insertion; and the car had been sitting overnight in -5 to -10 deg.C temperature (except that the block heater was for 2 hours prior to my measurement). BTW, is there really such thing as break-in motor oil? The car manual and the dealer say that there is no longer such thing as new engine break-in care (i.e. in terms of special driving) except for the ’special oil’.
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Too high is bad news and should be taken care of. The crank will be in the oil and can stir it up into a froth. Then the oil pump is pumping bubbles. Not a good thing… And yes the dealer knows what he is talking about for break-in. The metals and first ‘break-in’ oil used now are way better and break-in is smoother. I still would run it easy for a while with the occasional pedal to the metal. Old habits are hard to break, and it can’t hurt. My $0.02, Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33×9.5 BFG Muds, ‘glass nose to tail 88 Cherokee 235 AT’s Build and Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: (Updated 02/18/01 with Winter 00/01 and ‘Disco Follies’) http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1161190 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a new car (1 month old 2001 Mazda Protege 2.0l DOHC) and this morning > I checked the oil level for the first time. The oil extended 1 to 2 " above > the max mark on the dipstick. The dealer says the oil is special oil for the > break-in period. I haven’t yet asked the dealer why oil level is so high. Is > it supposed to be overfilled? Is more or less (as long as it’s above min > required) oil better for a new engine during the break-in period? I didn’t > measure wrong because I repeated inserting the dipstick several times and > wiped thoroughly before each insertion; and the car had been sitting > overnight in -5 to -10 deg.C temperature (except that the block heater was > for 2 hours prior to my measurement). > BTW, is there really such thing as break-in motor oil? The car manual and > the dealer say that there is no longer such thing as new engine break-in > care (i.e. in terms of special driving) except for the ’special oil’.
